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The FJ Fleet 
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Kelvin0514 wrote:
Pretty awsome rendering. I would like to make 3D drawings as well.

I won't call it "easy". But the resources for learning 3D in general and Blender in specific (or Sketchup) are amazing these days. (I should try getting theses meshes into Sketchup. There are some pretty terrific rendering options.

Kelvin0514 wrote:
That already remembers me the background bridge schematics in ST:TWoK, which makes me think FJ's ships are canon.

Well, sure. Of course it always cracked me up that the single "canon" dreadnought (Entente) was listed as not built in the FRS. Hee!

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27 Jun 2017 15:57
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So, should I piss everyone off and just create a deadnought named Entente that looks nuthin' like Federation? Naaaa. I wouldna do that.

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27 Jun 2017 19:07
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Tallguy wrote:
Kelvin0514 wrote:
That already remembers me the background bridge schematics in ST:TWoK, which makes me think FJ's ships are canon.

Well, sure. Of course it always cracked me up that the single "canon" dreadnought (Entente) was listed as not built in the FRS. Hee!


My thinking at the time when I determined all that stuff (during, ironically, development of the Dreadnought Poster in 1983 and Starship Design in 1984)?

I was already kinda-sorta beginning to downplay or de-emphasize the dreadnought as a concept (at least, the FJ triple-engine idea of a dreadnought). And when I first met David he kinda-sorta agreed.

By the time of publication of Starship Design, that direction was firmly established, because as you can see in that book I had several of them being canceled – and the Fleet not even bothering to update a few of the Federations.

As for Entente specifically, I remember thinking that for Epsilon Nine to be sending out unencoded, much less unencrypted, messages & transmissions – especially since they were located right on the doorstep of Klingon territory – was just nuts. And since Entente was of course mentioned in one of those very transmissions, I chalked it all up to being nothing more than the feldergarb of false flag operations™.

Or, F3O !

In other words, a bunch of gibberish and deception sent out as blobs and blurts of disinformation. It would behoove Epsilon Nine to do so, of course, since planting the idea with the Klingons of there being more dreadnoughts in service than there actually were would keep the threat units away – or at least on their toes and a bit hesitant.

Indeed, I would think that if Epsilon Nine WAS actually transmitting such information they’d do it in both encrypted form AND as unit identifiers rather than using actual individual ship nomenclature. Something akin to “Unit Thunder Arista Koyle, tacking to Sec21105 by Delta bearing overlap, rendezvous unit Taggart Emmy Kilo, once-twice and all is nice. Forward up 212 Alpha. Confirm when able.”

So basically, short story long at this point: The mention of Entente was total BS.

And anyway, I think that type of coded communication just sounds a whole helluva lot cooler too. ;)

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27 Jun 2017 23:55
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aridas wrote:
So, should I piss everyone off and just create a deadnought named Entente that looks nuthin' like Federation?

What kind of direction would you go if you were to design a non-Federation dreadnought? Just outta curiosity...


28 Jun 2017 05:56
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We don't know if the transmission was in the clear. We heard it in the clear, but we don't know how it was actually sent. It could have been sent in the clear, encrypted, enciphered, or even low probability to very low probability of intercept. Most likely all of the above. Meaning that the Klingons would have heard nothing. In a one time pad cipher.

Low probability of intercept has existed since WW I I. Also known as frequency hopping.


28 Jun 2017 06:48
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Well typing is way easier than modeling. :)

aridas: That would be the most reasonable explanation (to me), especially entering the TMP era. Entente was a DN, just not necessarily a first block Federation class.

Calon: Heh. Epsilon 9 is kind of a contradiction isn't it? It's show as a "run of the mill" communications station and it's like Grand Central Station. But it's right on the EDGE of the Fed Border. Well, maybe not as on the edge as all that. They are intercepting Klingon transmissions through a drone, but it also takes Vejur a few hours to get to them. Not that distance rate and time problems were ever Trek's strong suit.

It's kind of like Delta Vega. "Nobody has ever been out this far! Except for that mining station that's right over there!"

John N. Ritter wrote:
Low probability of intercept has existed since WW I I. Also known as frequency hopping.


That's some Hedy stuff.

Tomorrow is FJ Day and I'm just not going to have this done. OTOH, I'm fairly sure that by next year I will have completed the Tug AND the Heavy Cruiser.

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28 Jun 2017 10:44
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Epsilon 9 is a kind of relay station according to me and could not be just nearby the Neutral Zone. It doesn't mean it is a monitoring station or a border outpost but it could receive transmissions from NZ outposts. If so does it mean it must have an "ENIGMA" machine for coded transmissions?
I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure Klingons knew the location of some defense fleets without knowing fleet operations. The UFP does the same keeping an eye at the Klingon ships formations. A reminiscence of cold wars I think.
Dreadnoughts in Starfleet are more often made to impress adversaries and keep a fleet up to date but it is also a matter of technology race. A TMP DN idea from Aridas is pretty interesting.


28 Jun 2017 11:55
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Hey guys, it's the day AFTER my birthday so I thought I'd chime in and clear this up: As far as exactly WHERE Epsilon Nine is located, obviously none of us knows for sure. When I write "especially since they were located right on the doorstep of Klingon territory" in my post up above all I'm doing is going by the authoritative text. Both the script as well as the novelization.

To wit (from the latter): "Then with the images firmly established in his mind, Kirk's senceiver implant began to filter the command alert message into his thoughts. As he had guessed, Starlfleet had received these images from one of its deep space outposts along the border of the Klingon Empire. This outpost station, Epsilon Nine, had detected the Klingon cruisers in time to get sensor drones launched ... "

So, there you have it. Even with distances at this scale being relative and all, Epsilon Nine is still a "deep space" outpost located along the "border of the Klingon Empire."

Hence my conclusion that listening to those transmissions, though really cool at the time while watching the movie (the first new live-action Trek in a decade, don't forget!), was a little unrealistic as far as what they were actually saying was concerned. It always felt like the exact wording was more of a tip of the hat to fandom and all the efforts the community had made in getting Trek produced again as opposed to a realistic portrayal of inter-Fleet communications.

YMMV. ;)

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29 Jun 2017 13:16
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Calon Riel wrote:
So, there you have it. Even with distances at this scale being relative and all, Epsilon Nine is still a "deep space" outpost located along the "border of the Klingon Empire."

Hence my conclusion that listening to those transmissions, though really cool at the time while watching the movie (the first new live-action Trek in a decade, don't forget!), was a little unrealistic as far as what they were actually saying was concerned. It always felt like the exact wording was more of a tip of the hat to fandom and all the efforts the community had made in getting Trek produced again as opposed to a realistic portrayal of inter-Fleet communications.

YMMV. ;)

Yes, that chatter was exactly what you described. It was simultaneously welcoming us back to Star Trek, showing us parts of Starfleet we've never seen before, and giving the nerds a nice shout out "all that stuff you've been doing for ten years matters! (Until Gene gets grumpy about it!)"

There's no reason to think it would sound like what it did or that we'd be "listening in" on chatter as if it were being shouted across a room.

Is "impressionistic" the right word?

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29 Jun 2017 13:39
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Though of course, with some form of multidimensional trans-quantum cryptography, you may also expect totally unbreakable comms with no reason not to send whatever as if in-the-clear.

I figure any form of communications are narrowly focused and not only entirely indecipherable but not even seen by anyone other than the intended recipient.

That doesn't really fit with "The Deadly Years" but there could also be broadband comms that rely on more conventional cryptography for whatever reason.

In the same vein, I don't think the hull markings on a Starfleet ship are visible to anyone the ship's commander does not want them to be visible to. Smart coatings. Smart markings. This is why the argument for non-consecutive NCC numbers to somehow hide fleet strength is, IMHO, nonsensical. Such "hiding" would be carried out in much more elaborate ways, and the order of the NCC numbers would not influence its success or failure.

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others."
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia Query XVII, 1783

"...here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it." -Thomas Jefferson, 1820


29 Jun 2017 16:05
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