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GR's Big Idea & Thy Image of the FRS 
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I'm assuming the "NASA-fied" DY was propelled via MHD or MPD thrusters and resulted in extensive practical experience with using the Lorentz force, and that something happened after its development that resulted in the opening of "exotic" science -- something that undermined or elaborated upon that cornerstone of classic physics -- the conservation of mass-energy. That discovery led to the first primitive attempts at massless propulsion, i.e. the Jefferies DY-100.

Or, I guess you could go the route that the Jefferies DY-100 was conventionally propelled and accelerated to near light speed before its engines cut out. I think third generation nuclear spacecraft engines would never be able to do such a thing, however. It makes more sense that the DY was the final step before the big advance mentioned by McGivers -- a rudimentary, reduced mass thruster. Something like what Woodward describes: a Mach-Lorentz engine. By 2020 a real massless, negative energy induction drive is developed resulting in the opening of the Solar System and plans to reach the Centauri system.

Assuming a Mach-Lorentz engine that could provide constant acceleration at 1 g for 250 years... Botany Bay would end up 30000 ly from Earth. Given that it was found (IIRC) 20 ly from Earth, it doesn't need to work for 250 years and/or accelerate at 1 g. It only needs to reach a speed of .08 ly/year to go 20 ly in 250 years. Now... .08 ly/year is still 54000000 mph. For a third generation nuclear rocket, that might be out of bounds. But for a first generation exotic propulsion system, at least it doesn't strain my imagination.

And for those that would say that ANY exotic propulsion system strains the imagination to the breaking point, remember that in the universe this takes place within, it is a given that such systems will happen. So the physics will allow it... eventually. The only question is when.

I think the Khan journey tells us when. Not only the Khan journey, but the fact that they have to get from the Saturn V in 1968 (Assignment Earth) to warp drive in circa 2161. You need to get from chemical propulsion through nuclear, to MHD, to some form of antigravitational STL, and on to a mixed antigravity-hypergravity FTL. Each of these levels has to go from breakthrough to engineering to prototypes to first generation and onward to something deemed inadequate and demanding innovation. That's a lot of work to fit into 90 years, so it has to get going as early as possible, but not so early as to have wrecked havoc on the world. Look at the effects that atomic power had on the world to guess what undermining a cornerstone of physics like conservation of mass-energy would have.

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09 Dec 2011 19:07
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Well if you want to bring in McGivers back into it. Then one thing must be brought to the fore. Warp By 2018as an absolute...

This changes everything.... Including FRS.

Which up other troubles, like one wouldn't need VASIMR, except as a pretty good planet orbiting system.

I am far more willing to go with the 2018 warp drive, than with anything else. Why??? Why am I so willing??? Because of our favorite space probe Nomad. Yes, Nomad. Remember it had 'Independent Logic'. This implies that massive data sets could be searched in real time, by just asking the right questions, in the right order. A perfect set up for Zephram Cochrane, to come along.... Then keep in mind that this is 16 years later than Nomad... A great deal of fast development would have occurred, and i do mean fast.

No need for anything exotic, just doing one's home via smart computer....

By the way with electron holes, in a given material, one can simulate exotic matter, even if one doesn't have it availible.

Which is your loop hole Aridis... Electron holes...


10 Dec 2011 12:29
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I totally disagree that warp is inferred by what McGivers said. She said suspended animation was...

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Necessary because of the time involved in space travel until about the year 2018. It took years just to travel from one planet to another.


"One planet to another". NOT one star to another. She isn't talking about warp, which at Warp 1 would take you from planet to planet in minutes (to at most 4-5 hours to reach Pluto). She's got to mean the leap from where we are now to some intermediary technology. We in fact know what the DY tech is -- .08 ly per year. 54 million miles per hour. That means that the DY-100 can get from here to Mars in two hours. From here to Pluto in 72 hours. That thing could seriously move. Mcgivers was OBVIOUSLY wrong. It had to be post 2018 or at least from ~that time. It COULD traverse the Solar System in days. They were only using the (obsolete) suspended animation units because they were heading for... What was it? Tau Ceti? Even so, at a speed that gets you to Pluto in three days it takes 55 years to reach the Centauri system. Something shrunk that time down to a manageable number before warp. Either that or nobody went there before warp.

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10 Dec 2011 14:40
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aridas wrote:
We in fact know what the DY tech is -- .08 ly per year. 54 million miles per hour. That means that the DY-100 can get from here to Mars in two hours. From here to Pluto in 72 hours. That thing could seriously move.

Catch me up, please. How do we know that?

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10 Dec 2011 16:02
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I always assumed that, like Voyager 6 in TMP, that Botony Bay met with some object which accelerated it outwards...or perhaps there was a component that surrounded the DY which fell away after initial acceleration...


10 Dec 2011 16:23
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Tallguy wrote:
aridas wrote:
We in fact know what the DY tech is -- .08 ly per year. 54 million miles per hour. That means that the DY-100 can get from here to Mars in two hours. From here to Pluto in 72 hours. That thing could seriously move.

Catch me up, please. How do we know that?


I'm basing my figures on memory. I think the short story adaptation by Blish said the ship was found near Tau Ceti. But if anyone has the book handy and can check my memory, I won't be bothered a bit.

Don't bother. I checked it. I was right about the intended destination, but wrong about the distance. Only 12 ly, not 20.

One troubling tidbit. From Mr. Spock:

Quote:
Captain, the DY-100 class vessel was designed for interplanetary travel only. With simple nuclear-powered engines, star travel was considered impractical at that time.


I guess there is really no way to stretch that into an early, exotic propulsion system. So if it was headed for Tau Ceti it was either on a suicide voyage or nuclear engines can do more than I think. I'm still betting on some advance upon an MHD thruster permitting constant acceleration. Nuclear, but very fancy.

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10 Dec 2011 18:29
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Quote:
Captain, the DY-100 CLASS vessel was designed for interplanetary travel only. With simple nuclear-powered engines, star travel was considered impractical at that time.


hmm... was Botany Bay a standard/stock version of a DY-100 ?

Quote:
I guess there is really no way to stretch that into an early, exotic propulsion system.


unless the genetic supermen had done some impressive secret black project engineering ...
- or liberated some ultrasecret data from an Area 51 analogue...
- or captured a small Ferengi warpshuttle...
- or been one of Qs amusing playthings...

surely there is ample precedent... for such an oddity of history... ; )

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10 Dec 2011 18:58
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Read the short story by James Blish. That is is my reference source.

Further more, assuming power supplies like ours, a 200 kilowatt nuclear power plant, is about all that we can expect, for some time to come. So since the Botany Bay had three of them, that leads to the idea that the DY-500's had three reactors(of 2018???).

Got news: 200,000 watts times three isn't that much power. So even if they were equipped with warp drive don't expect warp one any times soon. Even if, there would be a tendancy to try to achieve by those early engines, much like a cork held under water, wants to try to get to the surface...

And assuming a reaction drive, only from the perspective of the 1960s...


12 Dec 2011 15:00
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It only took me three and a half years to get back to this.

I think the magnetohydrodynamyc drive I propose for the DY-100 - a follow on to what is shown in "The Changeling" to be Nomad's circa 2001 mode of propulsion - is nuclear powered but capable of constant acceleration. It might eventually reach relativistic speeds and time dilation would come into play.

I this think that just given Nomad and what we know about magnetohydrodynamics, it isn't a far stretch to imagine a spacecraft designed to resupply the Earth-Moon-Mars environment being capable of long, slow acceleration to 1g, then leveling off at that rate of acceleration. With the slow buildup to 1g, it might still take a long time to reach Mars, but be capable of reaching relativistic speeds if it could last long enough.

There is also the possibility the DY-100 was originally intended as a weapon. Taken into a solar orbit and then accelerated into an intercept course with Earth, it might have been intended to do planetary scale damage as a last act of the first Eugenics War, with the ship's trajectory being thrown off just enough by Earth's defenders that it skipped off the atmosphere and eventually exited the Solar System. The journey to start new lives somewhere else might have been a fall back plan in case the military mission failed. That might explain why two of the six cargo containers are missing...

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"After a time, you may find that having is not so
pleasing a thing, after all, as wanting. It is not logical,
but it is often true."

Mr. Spock is dead. Live long, Mr. Spock.


23 Jul 2015 12:35
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Perhaps something like the Doomsday Orion--a massive warhead
http://william-black.deviantart.com/jou ... -504258455


06 Aug 2015 18:14
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