View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently 23 Jun 2017 06:10



Reply to topic  [ 133 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14  Next
DYs and the Evolution of the Transport 
Author Message
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 16 Dec 2008 23:08
Posts: 3056
Location: Star Fleet Publications, Park Presidio Enclave
That aspect of the Ptolemy design always bothered me as well. It got me thinking about the relative function of those parts (the saucer and secondary hull) and how "modular" they might be. I came to a conclusion not unlike Shaw's i.e. that the ship was composed of smaller modules within the larger saucer, secondary hull, etc. Shaw has linked these with the "hull pressure compartment" diagram and that works for me, as well -- it was a great bit of deduction on his part. Why not go along and see where it leads? This is one place -- that Ptolemy might have a wholly different suite of pressure compartments than a CH. Probably allocated for passengers, possibly for supervisory personnel going along with important cargo. Ptolemies may be colonization vessels, in which case the saucer might carry the governing group while the personnel container tows the rest.

There is also the possibility that large amounts of space might be provided to researchers for customized labs conducting deep space research along the spacelanes. In this case, we are back to a similar layout to the CH -- large spaces for labs and lots of smaller spaces for the people working in those labs.

_________________
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others."
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia Query XVII, 1783

"...here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it." -Thomas Jefferson, 1820


15 Dec 2009 09:37
Profile WWW
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral

Joined: 31 Dec 2008 20:59
Posts: 3345
About degenerate matter? I just found out a big show stopper. Inertial Confinement Fusion. BANG!!!


20 Dec 2009 21:39
Profile
Commodore
Commodore
User avatar

Joined: 20 Dec 2008 18:39
Posts: 2362
Location: toltec sector
Quote:
About degenerate matter? I just found out a big show stopper. Inertial Confinement Fusion. BANG!!!


"now, that sounds painful..." - <with understated british accent>


Quote:
That aspect of the Ptolemy design always bothered me as well. It got me thinking about the relative function of those parts (the saucer and secondary hull) and how "modular" they might be. I came to a conclusion not unlike Shaw's i.e. that the ship was composed of smaller modules within the larger saucer, secondary hull, etc. Shaw has linked these with the "hull pressure compartment" diagram and that works for me, as well -- it was a great bit of deduction on his part. Why not go along and see where it leads? This is one place -- that Ptolemy might have a wholly different suite of pressure compartments than a CH. Probably allocated for passengers, possibly for supervisory personnel going along with important cargo. Ptolemies may be colonization vessels, in which case the saucer might carry the governing group while the personnel container tows the rest.

There is also the possibility that large amounts of space might be provided to researchers for customized labs conducting deep space research along the spacelanes. In this case, we are back to a similar layout to the CH -- large spaces for labs and lots of smaller spaces for the people working in those labs.


would the modular hull sections attached to a spaceframe be a common historical pattern ??

that could explain how/why so many various earlier (cruiser) ship designs were eventually uprated/updated to 'nominal' Constitution class look-alikes... ; )

or maybe Starfleet engineers were taking cues from the future entertainment media shills, and making everything look like the 'latest and greatest' HERO ship in the fleet... : O

_________________

All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force...
We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind.
This Mind is the matrix of all matter.
Max Planck


20 Dec 2009 22:26
Profile
Figuring out what future (or present) transport systems gets pretty complex, as there are lots of variables involved. It takes more than strapping a big container onto a big, fast ship and assuming that all commodities are transported in this way. This would only be true if this were the cheapest, fastest, and most convenient way for all commodities and for all time periods. More likely, for any time period, including our own, there are numerous ways to transport a given commodity; which way is chosen depends on shipping distance, speed, cost, weight/volume of commodity, value, demand, perishability, and other variables. For example, if you were willing to spend $20,000 dollars you could have someone hand-carry a $50 million painting on a private charter jet from New York to London in 6 hours. In contrast, for a few bucks a ton, you can ship rocks halfway around the world in a few months on a half-million ton container ship.

When I was working on my transport starships in the 2150s, I was thinking about what commodities would and would not sent from star to star. In a lot of cases, stuff that we routinely ship from continent to continent (strawberries, wood, frozen beef, cardboard boxes) might not be sent from, say, Earth to Andor or from Earth to an earth colony. Interstellar transport at that time was likely very slow and very expensive, so very few commodities would probably be sent. You might send people, gold, caviar, computers, atmosphere-processing plants, or other high-value items, but anything that could be produced locally would not be worth the time and expense to send. As the price of interstellar transport decreases and the speed increases, more and more commodities would be sent, but whether it should ever be as cheap and convenient for any and all commodities to be transported interstellarly, I don’t think so. Of course, in the techo-magical world of TNG, this state has apparently been reached.

Therefore, charting the route from DY-100 to Ptolemey is much more than designing ships. It's about design markets and societies!


21 Dec 2009 04:14
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral

Joined: 31 Dec 2008 20:59
Posts: 3345
What you would send to a colony is seeds. Fresh Strawberris are all well and fine, but if you give a man a fish, you have fed him for a day, but if you teach a man to fish, you have fed him for life.

As you say it is very complex, Masao. The (I didn't see this in your post) you have technological limitations. What happens if the Bison class transport was the first really large ship? This places extreme limits on what you are going to send anyway...


21 Dec 2009 11:06
Profile
Commodore
Commodore
User avatar

Joined: 20 Dec 2008 18:39
Posts: 2362
Location: toltec sector
well, the size and cruising speed of ships seem to increase over time, as well as the operating/maintenance requirements decreasing...

it's an interesting question how much 'bulk' shipping might be going on in TNG, if replicators are really in widespread use
- maybe most freight could be carried in ships remarkably similar to those of the previous century
- with high-value cargo sent in real form where there is no local replicator infrastructure, and as data patterns where it is
- this could explain why most of the 'visible' TNG shipping is shuttlecraft/runabout scale (at least inside the Federation borders)

as for sending seeds...

there is no nanotech in TOS, but is there a 'microtech' economy ?
- could you have automated colony seeds - drop some von nueman probes to build a colony infrastructure (on M-class worlds) then come by just a couple years later with a colony ship loaded with all the colonists, seed crops, and livestock
- with some sorts of 'assembler' tech you could grow shipyards, outposts, and starbases - then send ships out with crews later
- maybe the big cargo pods also carry things that would take to long to 'grow' locally (putting a spin on how Fed tech actually builds things)

_________________

All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force...
We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind.
This Mind is the matrix of all matter.
Max Planck


21 Dec 2009 15:24
Profile
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: 09 Jan 2009 01:13
Posts: 1562
Masao wrote:
More likely, for any time period, including our own, there are numerous ways to transport a given commodity; which way is chosen depends on shipping distance, speed, cost, weight/volume of commodity, value, demand, perishability, and other variables. <snip> Therefore, charting the route from DY-100 to Ptolemey is much more than designing ships. It's about design markets and societies!


That's kinda the same approach I was looking at in my earlier post. Thinking about what the transport chain and practices are at the time in question, and then figuring out/rationalizing the ships around that.

Mark

_________________
Northern lights passed by then they were gone. And as old stars would die so the new ones were born. Ever on I sailed celestial ways. And in the light of my years shone the rest of my days. Those who know, will they help us grow, to one day be Starriders.


21 Dec 2009 16:32
Profile
Rear Admiral
Rear Admiral

Joined: 31 Dec 2008 20:59
Posts: 3345
Microtech economy? Good question...


21 Dec 2009 20:10
Profile
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 16 Dec 2008 23:08
Posts: 3056
Location: Star Fleet Publications, Park Presidio Enclave
In the original FRS, I wrote a report on one of the transports, and noted how the cost of shipping some items was collapsing in the face of pattern transmission i.e. subspace messages containing the patterns for some substances and objects, constituted at the destination. To me it seemed that subspace communications + transporter/replicator technology would lead to a collapse in transport of goods with sufficiently simple/short patterns to "mail".

It would give a ehole new meaning to "mail order". ;)

_________________
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others."
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia Query XVII, 1783

"...here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it." -Thomas Jefferson, 1820


21 Dec 2009 22:45
Profile WWW
Commodore
Commodore
User avatar

Joined: 20 Dec 2008 18:39
Posts: 2362
Location: toltec sector
not to mention the sheer madcap whimsy of 'pattern corruption errors'...

smuggling = sneakernet... ; )

_________________

All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force...
We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind.
This Mind is the matrix of all matter.
Max Planck


22 Dec 2009 02:31
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 133 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron

Forum hosting by ProphpBB | Software by phpBB | Report Abuse | Privacy