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Let's discuss Kiaga... 
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Aren't officer devices (non stripes) on USN duty uniforms for commonality purposes? To make them more apparent to the members of other services?

The use of devices would make more sense if Star Fleet had other services under its command . . . like Marines. In the TMP movie program it states that Arcturians(?) are the Fleet's infantry. This could indicate a seperate ranking system for "surface action forces". The use of devices within the fleet when these "Marines" are embarked would seem appropriate.

Anyway, I think I just solved my issue with devices. :mrgreen:


10 Nov 2011 19:30
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That is very much my thinking as well. Stripes for continuity and one device for rank, one for branch od Star Fleet. Engineers, Medical, Sciences, Operations, Ship Command, Fleet Command, Shore Establishment, etc. The Security Corps are the "marines", but more integrated with the overall Fleet and with a number of sub branches-- Mobile Ground Forces, Fleet Security, JAG, etc. And of course the frontier patrol-- Tacfleet-- with its own sub branches like the Surface Action Specialists. There would be more differentiation and specialization reflected in those devices than seen in TOS, where we either saw only a portion of what was going on or the organization had changed and was much broader in focus. I tend to think both.

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11 Nov 2011 01:15
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^^^^
The trick is for all this to be easily recognized when come up on someone you've never met before.

I would model a lot of it on the current USN pallette of badeges of rank and specialization. They've managed to reflect a fairly broad number of specialties (especially in the enlisted ranks) without it becoming too byzantine and keeping things easy to recognize.

Rank badeges in particular need to be prominent because that is the whole idea of having badges of rank. US Army uniforms in the late 70s and early 80s could be a bit problematic. We were wearing rank pins and unit insignia on the fron of our caps. There was an armor unit stationed up the road from my unit which had a failty big unit insignia which was kind of square and silver/white, with a dark epephant's head in the middle. From a distance this looked very much like captain's bars. Until I figured this out, I ended up knd of half saluting a lot of confused sergeants. :) The TOS-era sleeve stripes worked very well, the TWOK-era system of shoulder pins not so much, IMO.

Specialty badges, on the other hand, are useful in some situations, but do not necessarily need to be too prominent on the uniform. Soem sort of shoulder patch will proably be suitable.

Qualification badeges (pilot's wings, Marine Spaceborne badge, or what have you), I would put on the chest probably paired with the Starfleet/ship's insignia.

There should also be distinctly different unforms for day-to-day duty and more formal/diplomatic situations. It has nver sat well with me that Starfleet types were wearing the same uniform whether fixing a warp engine or beaming down to meet new aliens. The TWOK uniforms especially were NOT day-to-day work uniforms despite the way the seemd to be used.

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11 Nov 2011 09:52
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I absolutely agree with you on the question of uniforms. The TWOK unis were far more elaborate than the TOS-TAS and even TMP dress unis. Like some ceremonial garb to be worn only at a presidential ball. And even then there were no links back to any of the rank designations or awards and decorations or differentiation of specialization from TOS. Nothing. It might as well have been built on Dudley Do-right as Star Trek.

By working those poorly conceived rank badges into the 4YW period, I'm trying to do the same kind of thing they did in ENT with the pips-- give the later pips some historical background. In ENT they mixed pips, the TOS color scheme and stripes. Same here-- TOS awards, decorations, colors and stripes are mixed with the TWOK rank devices on the dress uni.

To really make such a move feel "right", it would have been better if ENT had used the TWOK devices on the collar. Or, get rid of them on the TWOK unis and have all the rank devices be variations on pips.

As for uniforms, as you can tell from the pics upthread, I would have everyone that is doing any kind of work with their hands be dressed in the coverall. The tunic and trousers would be administrative attire and the basis for the uniform to be worn off ship. The bright colored tops would be reserved for dress uniforms (and the coveralls, which would have more drab versions of those colors).

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11 Nov 2011 11:54
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has anyone done a photoshop variation of TWOK uniforms with pips ?

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11 Nov 2011 14:54
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Where would you put them?

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11 Nov 2011 16:39
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^^^
Along the upper edge of the front flap of the jacket?

[quote=Aridas]
I absolutely agree with you on the question of uniforms. The TWOK unis were far more elaborate than the TOS-TAS and even TMP dress unis. Like some ceremonial garb to be worn only at a presidential ball. And even then there were no links back to any of the rank designations or awards and decorations or differentiation of specialization from TOS. Nothing. It might as well have been built on Dudley Do-right as Star Trek.
[/quote]

Yep. Great parade of dress uniform, crappy day-to-day/duty/garrison uniform. They're not necessarily bad looking uniforms, just not practical for what we saw them being used for on-screen.

Quote:
By working those poorly conceived rank badges into the 4YW period, I'm trying to do the same kind of thing they did in ENT with the pips-- give the later pips some historical background. In ENT they mixed pips, the TOS color scheme and stripes. Same here-- TOS awards, decorations, colors and stripes are mixed with the TWOK rank devices on the dress uni.

To really make such a move feel "right", it would have been better if ENT had used the TWOK devices on the collar. Or, get rid of them on the TWOK unis and have all the rank devices be variations on pips.


Gotcha.

Quote:
As for uniforms, as you can tell from the pics upthread, I would have everyone that is doing any kind of work with their hands be dressed in the coverall. The tunic and trousers would be administrative attire and the basis for the uniform to be worn off ship. The bright colored tops would be reserved for dress uniforms (and the coveralls, which would have more drab versions of those colors).


Those are very good designs, Aridas. The PA crews in my head are already wearing those. :)

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11 Nov 2011 17:37
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hmm... maybe shoulderboard style... or damn, i wish they had proper collars on those mountie uniforms... : O

since we're discussing retcon anyway...

what about using TMP style and just using a blue/grey version of TWOK jackets as formal mess jackets & away team gear ?

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11 Nov 2011 17:42
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davros_of_borg wrote:
hmm... maybe shoulderboard style... or damn, i wish they had proper collars on those mountie uniforms... : O

since we're discussing retcon anyway...

what about using TMP style and just using a blue/grey version of TWOK jackets as formal mess jackets & away team gear ?


Gods no. Adding shoulderboards to the TWoK unis would be way too much stuff.

As for the TMP direction: I agree. I seem to remeber Aridas doing up something along that line awhile back, too.

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11 Nov 2011 17:46
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Quote:
Gods no. Adding shoulderboards to the TWoK unis would be way too much stuff.


not using 'real' shoulderboards, just to align the pips the same way... ; )

though i suppose you could put a (branch color) trim stripe along the shoulder/collar top...

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11 Nov 2011 18:00
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