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I studied Casimiro and Sinclair very closely and found each of them strong in some ways and plagued by problems in others. Sinclair's was the stronger of the two overall, however.

I had discussions with Thomas Sasser during and after his work on the Polar Lights 1/1000 TOS E. His help was very valuable in certain areas, like the interhull dorsal, IIRC.

I also have a long experience, and many photos stretching back to the 1970s, of the 11 foot model. I have photos of that model in storage that I got while doing research at the Archives in the 80s. A lot of stuff that was of help. I even consulted Allen Everhart's work, and Todd's in SotSF.

In the end I compared what everyone had done against Jefferies' own drawings and drafts, and most of all, against hundreds upon hundreds of photographs and clips.

I'm not sure how accurate it is. Shaw seemed to think I got it pretty close. Once I got the Master Replicas 1/350 scale model, I saw a few little things that made me wonder, but that could be the model and not my synthesis.

I'll be interested to compare it to the new 1/350 Polar Lights TOS kit that is supposedly based closely on the work of the brash but brilliant Gary Kerr.

Finally, you need to remember that regardless of how close I got, that illustration was intended as a sketch. A first pass. The goal was to work it out much, much further along with Todd and Bill, developing deck plans and a 3D walkaround that would invariably change some things about what I'd done. We got the first four or so decks done and I recall there being many changes, which showed me that I was right in not getting too attached to that original cutaway illustration.

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20 May 2012 22:36
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aridas wrote:
I studied Casimiro and Sinclair very closely and found each of them strong in some ways and plagued by problems in others. Sinclair's was the stronger of the two overall, however.

Unless they're too numerous to discuss, would you mind elaborating more specifically on what you found, namely their respective problems? I'd appreciate it if possible.

I'm working on some drawings that may eventually lead to me doing my own external drawings of "Enterprise" to a fair level of detail...what with these plans, all the close-up photos out there now and so forth...and had also planned on using a combination of Casimiro/Sinclair as a possible starting point. So I'm curious as to your findings.

Thanks very much, and again if it would take too much time that's okay.

Mark

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29 May 2012 14:55
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Ahkyahnan wrote:
Unless they're too numerous to discuss, would you mind elaborating more specifically on what you found, namely their respective problems? I'd appreciate it if possible.

I'm working on some drawings that may eventually lead to me doing my own external drawings of "Enterprise" to a fair level of detail...what with these plans, all the close-up photos out there now and so forth...and had also planned on using a combination of Casimiro/Sinclair as a possible starting point. So I'm curious as to your findings.

Thanks very much, and again if it would take too much time that's okay.

Mark


I would be very interested in a summary as well, Sir.

aridas wrote:
I studied Casimiro and Sinclair very closely and found each of them strong in some ways and plagued by problems in others. Sinclair's was the stronger of the two overall, however.



After spending much time analyzing all available albeit more limited resources to me, I came to the same conclusion. Mainly the cross-section of the primary hull, and the warp nacelles. Here is my new version of the E based on Sinclair's plan, with the plans mapped onto the model:

Image

Was able to actually put some time in on this one over the weekend - yay :roll:

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29 May 2012 15:17
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very nice work there LS :) :D Brings back memories when you were active on the Dynaverse :)

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29 May 2012 17:21
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Ahkyahnan wrote:
aridas wrote:
I studied Casimiro and Sinclair very closely and found each of them strong in some ways and plagued by problems in others. Sinclair's was the stronger of the two overall, however.

Unless they're too numerous to discuss, would you mind elaborating more specifically on what you found, namely their respective problems? I'd appreciate it if possible.

Thanks very much, and again if it would take too much time that's okay.

Mark


That's tough for me to recall. I know there were real issues with the side view layout of the dorsal that needed Sasser's work and photos of the 11 foot model to clear things up. Same with the port-starboard "thickness" of the dorsal. The impulse engine was significantly off on one of the plans... can't remember which.

Overall, little things like the thickness of the saucer at the edge, the curves of the secondary hull, the size of the dish (iirc)... these were handled better by Sinclair.

I'd recommend you study the outline of my cross section and compare to both. My work was done after consulting everyone's and spending several days staring at and photographing the 11 foot model (during which time I got a $100 parking ticket!!!). Shaw seemed to think the lines I came up with were very close. Look at them, and Shaw's work. I think our respective efforts will reveal some of the problems with Sinclair's (and most definitely with Casimiro's). You might also want to try to contact Sinclair to see whether he has further revised his plans-- iirc they had been revised 2-3 times already when I was doing my 1701 cross section.

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29 May 2012 17:54
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Thanks very much for the info. I may try contacting Sinclair as you suggest. And I'll likely ask about specific details as they come up. Getting ready to post something soon that made use of both sets of plans.

Mark

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29 May 2012 20:15
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very nice work , there Schtupp !

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30 May 2012 08:49
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Keep in mind - one thing. The original 11 footer is not, nor ever was intended to an exact engineering model. It was not as indended to be anything like real engineering models.

In other words going too accurate in this case, will lead only to problems.


30 May 2012 11:14
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aridas,

Did you make any comparisons to Drexler's cutaway regarding the general outline of the ship? I know it's a bit stylized being a MSD and his scale seems a bit large maybe, but I believe he also worked on a CGI model that was in the running for TOS-R so I was curious. (Though I think his cutaway was created sometime before the CGI model.)

Mark

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07 Jun 2012 19:13
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Yes, I did compare what I was doing to Drexler. I don't recall any revelations so I assumed I was on the right track, given that I also assumed Drexler had access to Kerr's work based --supposedly-- on direct contact with the model.

I don't really think of Drexler's as MSD in style. To his credit he seemed to be trying to do something in line with TOS (in a way)-- he used Futura, for example. However --and this is a BIG however-- he pretty much ignored Jefferies' two cross sections. And of course those two cross sections were the whole raison d'etre for what I did. I was trying to see whether what everyone else was doing-- making the ship bigger, changing deck placements and arrangements, merging TNG concepts with TOS, etc -- was really necessary. I found that at least as far as I could tell, it wasn't.

But once again, let me emphasize-- Drexler's was way cool for what it was. Particularly that CGI 3D version used in ENT. That thing was like an animated 3D version of what I was trying to achieve with the Belknap systems diagrams in SotSF1. Very cool.

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-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia Query XVII, 1783

"...here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it." -Thomas Jefferson, 1820


07 Jun 2012 22:44
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