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On the three circles up front, I think you really need them as deflectors. That is a prime lication and it takes away the need for every ship to have a dish. That way, Enterprise has primary deflectors on the saucer bow, and secondary deflectors (also circles) behind the dish. Then, the dish is just a sensor.

That means a ship with just the saucer deflectors has the equivalent of say, one inch of armor plating, while Enterprise with its big secondary deflectors has like, six inches.

Where did it say Kirk was the first to gather his whole crew in one place? That sounds kind of crazy.

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30 Jun 2017 16:48
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Ahkyahnan wrote:
I haven’t had a chance to play with this idea myself, and it may make Bill scream (haha), but I’ve wondered whether the possible presence of that extended TAS shuttlecraft hangar you’ve speculated upon might lend itself to a refit history that smooths the transition we see between TOS and Phase II/TMP?

Bring it. :D

Ahkyahnan wrote:
I have to admit I wasn’t thinking of it so much in terms of the TMP cargo hold/hangar having been there all along, but more that the insertion of a hangar extension during some minor refit might reduce the degree of ‘moving stuff around’ later during the major TMP refit. If you look at that Probert cutaway you posted earlier, the length of the hangar is roughly similar to the TAS extended version.

Also, the curvature of the ‘cove’ (or whatever one calls that ‘undercut’ below the hangar landing ramp) as drawn in TAS is somewhat similar to the less severe/smoothed out curve we see in TMP if I’m not mistaken.

I did have that thought as well. I might not agree about the source (being an accident rather than on purpose), but it is the kind of "on the run" modification that could smooth the transition to TMP.

aridas wrote:
On the three circles up front, I think you really need them as deflectors. That is a prime lication and it takes away the need for every ship to have a dish. That way, Enterprise has primary deflectors on the saucer bow, and secondary deflectors (also circles) behind the dish. Then, the dish is just a sensor.

I know. Otherwise I'd have done it by now. :)

aridas wrote:
Where did it say Kirk was the first to gather his whole crew in one place? That sounds kind of crazy.

The novel of TMP. GR for the win!

There's something about TMP I can't quite put my finger on: We're not totally "there" yet. Sure we have a fleet, we have colonies, we have warp drive. But a lot of things are just a LITTLE bit rickety. The Space Office Complex seems "new". Like an old west town finally becoming a city. (Star Trek: Enterprise really wanted to have this feel, but instead of EVERYONE just getting "there" they made it so that Earth was the only ones who weren't!)

There are still a ton of "firsts" out there. Like having a space aboard a starship big enough to assemble an entire crew.

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30 Jun 2017 16:56
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Back in 1982, Probert told me the intention was to depict the orbital yards as very old. A hundred years old, he said. I always have thought that explained the differences between the heavily greebled look of the Space Office Complex and something like K-7.

I'm not at home at the moment. Can you quote that passage from the novel about the rec deck for me?

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30 Jun 2017 18:08
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aridas wrote:
Back in 1982, Probert told me the intention was to depict the orbital yards as very old. A hundred years old, he said. I always have thought that explained the differences between the heavily greebled look of the Space Office Complex and something like K-7.

I'm not at home at the moment. Can you quote that passage from the novel about the rec deck for me?


I am also not at home, but when I am I'll find it. There's a "Trek movie novelizations" thread at TrekBBS I'm wallowing in at the moment, so it's handy.

I know that the dockyards are meant to be old, and it does make sense from a world building standpoint. OTOH, we only saw two things: The office complex which looked like it was being constructed RIGHT NOW and the drydock. I can see the dock being old.

Even though Star Trek was supposed to be "a long time from now" I never got the impression that humanity (or even other races) had been in interstellar space all THAT long. (A century? Or two?) When you add the wrinkle of TMP nailing us to the 23rd century then that math still washes out.

Just my impressions. Not all of them borne out by onscreen evidence or even creator's intent.

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30 Jun 2017 18:43
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Yes the drydock.

But he also said he designed the SOC as an old core with modules thst were being swapped in and out as needed.

This BTW governs the way I am depicting this stuff in the 50th anniversary thread. I will be showing a SOC for "Ultimate Computer" that is meant to be more "up to date" than the one at Earth. The drydock at Starbase 11 is meant to be much more advanced than the one in TMP, eg contemporary with TOS.

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30 Jun 2017 18:54
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I'll buy that. The way it was shown in TOS and then with the mix of things like that Starbase 11 walkthrough and even TOS-R I get the idea that SB11 is probably all the tech of Old Earth with none of it's history (for better and worse).

It's the American Southwest of space!

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30 Jun 2017 19:04
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Quote:
It's the American Southwest of space!


Absolutely. It really is. The idea at the heart of the Googie movement was indeed, "wipe the slate clean and start over with all new technology and materials". The idea in TMP of a "museum city" in San Francisco is a later overlay on the very "Space Age Modernist", 1960s SoCal fantasy of a rocket-finned, paved San Fernando Valley.

And the 1960s San Fernando Valley was the creative milieu within which Star Trek was hatched.

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30 Jun 2017 19:18
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Kirk says he does not recall another captain assembling a full crew as he was about to and then notes that no one else had the space.

The Rec Deck is the largest interior space ever designed on a starship. Three perhaps four times the old rec deck. Without including the exercise rooms and sports areas adjoining it.

So sayeth Gene.

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04 Jul 2017 10:47
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Well, that will have to do. Too bad, as Probert's original ideas were conducive to translation into a TOS form.

Of course, Gene Roddenberry also said nacelles have to work in pairs. So I admit to taking some of his ideas less than literally. Perhaps the Probert rec space is there in TOS but divided with partitions and curving beams and used for multiple purposes like theater and exercise. We saw those spaces in TOS but it was never clear how they related to the ship as a whole.

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"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others."
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia Query XVII, 1783

"...here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it." -Thomas Jefferson, 1820


04 Jul 2017 12:41
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aridas wrote:
Well, that will have to do. Too bad, as Probert's original ideas were conducive to translation into a TOS form.

Of course, Gene Roddenberry also said nacelles have to work in pairs. So I admit to taking some of his ideas less than literally. Perhaps the Probert rec space is there in TOS but divided with partitions and curving beams and used for multiple purposes like theater and exercise. We saw those spaces in TOS but it was never clear how they related to the ship as a whole.


I suppose you can take Roddenberry at his word when he's not motivated by profit or making sure no one else can take credit.

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04 Jul 2017 14:28
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