View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently 25 Jun 2017 23:30



Reply to topic  [ 686 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69  Next
Fifty for 50 
Author Message
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 16 Dec 2008 23:08
Posts: 3062
Location: Star Fleet Publications, Park Presidio Enclave
Jim NCC1701A wrote:
aridas wrote:
But to preserve the vectors and layers we need a converter that won't reduce the images to bitmaps.


Of course :D

Really liking the 50 year timeline design changes. Was Republic's 'look' the inspiration for the Constitution class? It's quite a design leap from the Valiant.


I don't understand your question. Are you asking why the design leap from Republic to Valiant, or from Valiant to Constitution?

Republic as shown above is circa 2205.

Valiant is 2215

Mayflower as shown is about 2220

Intrepid as shown is 2262 or so.

So if I understand you right, yes. Mayflower is standing in for the 2220 great circumferential leap that we attributed to Constitution back in the FRS etc. Constitution would be 2240-45 since that seems to be the way Roddenberry decided he wanted it. When you look at it, it really is not a big change from Republic to Valiant. The secondary hull is increased in diameter and length, and the primary hull gets ring modules added to replace the sphere sections that are removed, (presumably to allow for the new engines to realize their improved performance).

You will soon see Essex on the revised Starbase 11 chart. That is a late 2220s-early-2230s ship. That will give you an idea of an intermediary step to Constitution. And of course, Republic as shown with the "Court Martial" pages is at the end of its days is a late-2230s refit.

_________________
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others."
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia Query XVII, 1783

"...here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it." -Thomas Jefferson, 1820


11 Jun 2017 23:32
Profile WWW
Moderator
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: 09 Jan 2009 01:13
Posts: 1562
Jim NCC1701A wrote:
Really liking the 50 year timeline design changes. Was Republic's 'look' the inspiration for the Constitution class? It's quite a design leap from the Valiant.

For more background on what aridas was talking about in that post, you can review this thread if you have time.

topic825.html

It's where most of this discussion originally began. Additional images begin on Page 6 and continue developing thru the end of the thread.

Mark

_________________
Northern lights passed by then they were gone. And as old stars would die so the new ones were born. Ever on I sailed celestial ways. And in the light of my years shone the rest of my days. Those who know, will they help us grow, to one day be Starriders.


12 Jun 2017 09:27
Profile
Ensign
Ensign
User avatar

Joined: 21 Nov 2012 05:37
Posts: 29
aridas wrote:
I don't understand your question. Are you asking why the design leap from Republic to Valiant, or from Valiant to Constitution?

Republic as shown above is circa 2205.

Valiant is 2215

Mayflower as shown is about 2220

Intrepid as shown is 2262 or so.


My apologies aridas, I misread the description that went with chart. 'The final ship, at the bottom... Also there is the Republic'

I'll try to pay more attention in future.


14 Jun 2017 01:17
Profile
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
User avatar

Joined: 28 Aug 2015 14:54
Posts: 133
Location: Belgium
Well, it's good to see the old Republic compared to Valiant. It's a good appreciation for ships sizes. Comparison charts are always useful for me. Daedalus-like and Horizon-like ships would be great in a such lineage.


14 Jun 2017 15:10
Profile
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 16 Dec 2008 23:08
Posts: 3062
Location: Star Fleet Publications, Park Presidio Enclave
The ships from this chart in "Court Martial".

Image

This is the finished version and has Essex (1697) and Excelsior (1718) added:

Image

Excelsior, undergoing deep space trials. Intrepid, being decommissioned.

_________________
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others."
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia Query XVII, 1783

"...here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it." -Thomas Jefferson, 1820


20 Jun 2017 21:22
Profile WWW
Lieutenant
Lieutenant

Joined: 21 Nov 2011 22:45
Posts: 199
Location: Torchwood 7, USA
Aridas, you just made my day!!!!!!! I totally love that chart and the reference picture to go with it. This is awesome. Thank you for showing the Excelsior as a Phase II starship. That is just awesome!!!!!!!!! I love Phase II and this is a big nod to it!!!!!! Thank you so much!!!!!!! :D :D :D


21 Jun 2017 02:16
Profile
Lieutenant
Lieutenant
User avatar

Joined: 28 Aug 2015 14:54
Posts: 133
Location: Belgium
And the Phase II model for the Excelsior! Great! :D


21 Jun 2017 07:27
Profile
Captain
Captain
User avatar

Joined: 19 Dec 2008 10:01
Posts: 1674
Location: Beyond the Farthest Star
(Heh. I was going to ask for NCC numbers and then I realized that those are marked on the ships. Coffee. Need coffee.)

First, what a terrific job. That's a nice collection of cruisers. And all of their officers wearing Starfleet arrowhead insignia, too. :)

Sometimes this site feels like homework. That's not bad. Many wonderful things I know are from homework. I just can't always keep up with all of it and need the Cliffs Notes version. So this post is almost 90% questions.

I realize that if the Phase II (Constitution II, right?) exists that it probably pre-dates the Enterprise class. So how much of a leap forward is it from the Bonhomme Richard / Achernar class to the Constitution II? How much between the BR to the Enterprise? Is the Enterprise class still as much a surge forward as we are led to believe from Roddenberry and Probert?

Why Excelsior? Ok, answered my own question there: Franz Joseph got there first.

Did you change your mind about the Reliant?

Defiant: This is a disagreement I will lose, but are there any other shots from TAS other than the one profile drawing that was used often that suggest an elongated hull? In other words was it a mistake on a single drawing or a mistake / choice repeated anywhere else?

I take it you're suggesting that Intrepid is decommissioned here so that the All New All Vulcan Intrepid can be launched later this / next year?

Again, a tremendous work stuck right in the middle of a larger tremendous work. I'm so glad you've stuck with this. It's a fantastic gift. I wish more nerds knew about it.

_________________
-- Bill "Tallguy" Thomas
All I ask is a tall ship...


21 Jun 2017 11:18
Profile
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 16 Dec 2008 23:08
Posts: 3062
Location: Star Fleet Publications, Park Presidio Enclave
Tallguy wrote:
(Heh. I was going to ask for NCC numbers and then I realized that those are marked on the ships. Coffee. Need coffee.)

First, what a terrific job. That's a nice collection of cruisers. And all of their officers wearing Starfleet arrowhead insignia, too. :)

Sometimes this site feels like homework. That's not bad. Many wonderful things I know are from homework. I just can't always keep up with all of it and need the Cliffs Notes version. So this post is almost 90% questions.

I realize that if the Phase II (Constitution II, right?) exists that it probably pre-dates the Enterprise class. So how much of a leap forward is it from the Bonhomme Richard / Achernar class to the Constitution II? How much between the BR to the Enterprise? Is the Enterprise class still as much a surge forward as we are led to believe from Roddenberry and Probert?


This is going to come as a shock because I never made a big deal about it. But this should not be seen as a continuation or even as part of the same world as the FRS or SotSF. Those books were of a time, totally beholden to a certain collection of fan- and pro-created materials. This isn't. It is a celebration of TOS and Jefferies' role in it, that also dabbles with other people's works to show the influence Jefferies had on them. So yeah, Todd and Mike and I show up in here because we are among that group, as was Franz Joseph himself. But this is trying to hold to TOS and by extension, what was inferred or later explicated in interviews with the people who made the show. I will only go against that if it really doesn't make sense at all.

So the whole "Constitution to Bonhomme Richard to Achernar" with Endeavor and Tikopai and finaly Enterprise? It does not necessarily happen that way in this portrayal. Not saying it doesn't. Just not necessarily.

Quote:
Why Excelsior? Ok, answered my own question there: Franz Joseph got there first.


In my mind, this is not only about Phase II coming down the pike and Jefferies designing that ship. It's also about -with a wink and a nod - the similarity of Kirk stealing the Enterprise to get Spock in ST3 and Spock stealing Enterprise to get Pike in "The Menagerie". It's just that in Menagerie, Starfleet makes a bit more sense and they don't send ships still on trials into active duty to chase down Enterprise. They send... a shuttlecraft? With the CO of the ship and the starbase? Oops. I guess TOS could also engage in half wit nonsense. It's just half wit nonsense with much better design and writing. :P

Quote:
Did you change your mind about the Reliant?


No. Commodore Stone's chart is page ten of fifteen pages listing ships in port. This is the part of the list with 1600 and 1700 series cruisers and heavy cruisers. Reliant is on the next page with the 1800 series frigates and heavy frigates.

Quote:
Defiant: This is a disagreement I will lose, but are there any other shots from TAS other than the one profile drawing that was used often that suggest an elongated hull? In other words was it a mistake on a single drawing or a mistake / choice repeated anywhere else?


Two reasons. First, the evidence is there, plain as day, in that side view. The saucer is spot on accurate but the secondary hull is stretched from the pylons aftward. I really think he might have intended to do it that way. Why? To accomodate that huge hangar that he shows. As a refit, it makes sense. That hanger gets swapped out almost as easily as the nacelles. But even if we say Enterprise never got that refit - and I am fine with that argument - the image is there as a different "look" for the ship. So since I have cataloged the various models and appearances and employed them as the twelve-ships like Enterprise, this qualifies. Plus, it is Defiant, a new-ish ship. It makes sense it would employ an up-to-date look. Either the Phase II design or the TAS design. I needed the Phase II design for the higher NCC - Excelsior. So TAS it was.

Quote:
I take it you're suggesting that Intrepid is decommissioned here so that the All New All Vulcan Intrepid can be launched later this / next year?


Yes. Plus, I am messing with the fact Jein and Okuda give one number and FJ (and by virtue of his NCC explanation, Jefferies) give another. So, two ships for this one because we know that by the time of "Immunity Syndrome" it is a 430 crew size, inferring it is a Constitution-class ship. How can it be 1631 and a Constitution-class ship if the "17" means a different type, design and/or appearance? It can't. So two ships.

Quote:
Again, a tremendous work stuck right in the middle of a larger tremendous work. I'm so glad you've stuck with this. It's a fantastic gift. I wish more nerds knew about it.


You are very kind. That is high praise coming from you. People will find it or they won't. I am not going to run around waving it in front of their faces. It isn't like I am selling it or need them to buy it. It's there if they are interested.

_________________
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others."
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia Query XVII, 1783

"...here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it." -Thomas Jefferson, 1820


21 Jun 2017 14:56
Profile WWW
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 16 Dec 2008 23:08
Posts: 3062
Location: Star Fleet Publications, Park Presidio Enclave
So just to clarify, in case anyone isn't into detail,

1700 is the ship in FJ's BoGP.

1701 is the 11-foot model as it appeared in the series.

1703 is the 11-foot model as it appeared in WNMHGB.

1709 is the ship as it appeared in TAS.

1718 is Jefferies' Phase II design (as contrasted with the Phase II model as it was built, which is different in some details.) it is not Minor's Phase II design (which the FRS called Endeavor). Neither is it what was called Constitution II in the FRS and SotSF. That was a modification of a the Jennings revisions to Jefferies' Phase II design, which IIRC was the basis of the model as built.

For future reference,

1702 and 1711 will be based on the small, 4" model that sold the design and - I believe - informed the metal "Catspaw" ship design.

1710 will be similar- that metal ship from "Catspaw".

1708 will be the three foot model as revised during the series.

1707 will be the 11-foot "Cage" ship.

1706 will also be the 11-foot series model.

1017 will be the 1967 AMT model.

1705 will be the ship in MJ's TMoST three-view plans.

1704 will be FJ's ship in the TM.

We know they are mentioned as a group in "Tomorrow is Yesterday", but here is where I will release their pages:

Enterprise 1701 "The Man Trap"
Constellation 1017 "Doomsday Machine"
Constitution 1700 "Trouble with Tribbles"
Farragut 1702 "Obsession"
Lexington 1703 "Ultimate Computer"
Yorktown 1704 "Obsession"
Excalibur 1705 "Ultimate Computer"
Exeter 1706 "Omega Glory"
Hood 1707 "Ultimate Computer"
Intrepid 1708 "The Immunity Syndrome"
Defiant 1709 (not 1717) "The Tholian Web"
Kongo 1710 TMoST Fontana memo- release with "Tomorrow is Yesterday"
Potemkin 1711 "Ultimate Computer"
Excelsior 1718 "Court Martial"

_________________
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others."
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia Query XVII, 1783

"...here we are not afraid to follow truth wherever it may lead, nor to tolerate any error so long as reason is left free to combat it." -Thomas Jefferson, 1820


21 Jun 2017 15:20
Profile WWW
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 686 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron

Forum hosting by ProphpBB | Software by phpBB | Report Abuse | Privacy