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Go into any complex factory of the 
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1960's and you will find something of interest. Especially in automobile factories. No computers. None, except may one used for book keeping. maybe for research. So how did the factories control complex production lines? Hardwired complexes. What this means is, that for a new drug to be made, for a new design of car to be produced, a patch panel controlled logic element had to be onsite. And had to be rewired for any changes.

Watching again Where No Man has Gone Before, this struck me. Computers were there, but used for data storage, and research, but not ship control. Other wise some of the plot to this episode, would fail badly.

So what do control consist of? Sequencers, mostly. That would be triggered perhaps by other sequencers. Which may be triggered by sensor readings(set points), or by operators(human). Why is this important? Because it means that GR and company hadn't figure things out yet, as completely as they would later. This was why the controls from Delta Vega, had to be adapted to the Enterprise. They weren't designed for her, in particular a Constitution class ship.

This means that there was little to none computer control of the ship. Which means limited capability. Keep in mind the GR GLC, and MJ were of the WW II generation, and that what they designed reflected this...

Another thing, it means no fabricators either. At least not for spare parts.


24 Mar 2013 21:19
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hmm... would that make duotronics analogous to digital computers... and multitronics analogous to complex neural networks...

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25 Mar 2013 16:52
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Hmmm. Not quite there yet you are.

Problem: Von Neumann. Why? Because he realized the essence of computer long ago. Load->Process->Output. So what is going on with Duotronics? Look at the series, again. What is happening with what is shown? Answer(partial) voice input/output. Computation(traditional) But! It is unusual for the ship to run on autopilot(The Menagerie). Why?

What is going on? A very limited computer system, is the only answer.

Problem: Traditional computers aren't too good with handling a great deal of data - voice recognition requires to do it in real time, a 200 MHz clock speed 32 bit computer. Why? Problem size. Pattern recognition is even higher band width requirements. Property recognition on the other hand, doesn't require so much.

Problem: sensors what are the physics of the space warp??? In other words how much preprocessing is required, just to handle a small amount of data?

What this argues is that a Duotronic computer system is a very long word computer. That is its word size maybe much greater than the 64 word bit we use now. So think in terms of a small primary memory, and a quite large secondary memory with a slow download speed into primary...

Bust as for Multitronics, we know a great deal more, about it, then we do about Duotronics. We know the the memory engrams of a human can be imposed upon the circuitry, in a space the size of an office desk. So what is involved here? The ability to read out, and entire human brain, plus the body's entrie structure.. Huh? It must be complete. What this means is that the M-5 was running a simulation of Dr. Daystrom, a complete image of him, has to be. Anything less than that and it would cause problems. Big problems. Then a starship had to be mapped onto to this simulation, in a two way arrangement. Only that would suffice for doing it rightly. So where does this leave Duotronics? Back at the drawing board. What it means, in order to be anything ar all is a NPC computer run system, again with the mapping in two ways. But that NPC would have very little extra to run the ship.

It also means something else. It means that however complex the NPC is, it can't handle too much either.


25 Mar 2013 17:15
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The term I was looking for, for the 1960's control systems was 'Relay Logic', which is defined by the use of relays. Which can get very complex. But a given production line, that made use of relay logic and sequencers, had to be rebuilt, each time for a new car model. This was expensive.

But then some one noticed that a computer could do the job, which caused in the 1970's, an explosion in the mini computer market.

So what is Duotronics? The simple answer, and most direct one, is: It is the computer's computer. :shock: :roll: :roll: :o :? Not to put too fine a point on it. It was suppose do that which the computers of the 1960's couldn't do. Which leads to something else. Why? It wasn't realized at the time even by expert just how far one could go with computers. In the real world Intel is coming out with a 48 core chip. Why? Well it turns out that there are some applications that don't run well on single CPU machines, nor on even octal core machines. It is a question of interfacing with the real world, in a complete manner as possible.

So look at this way - P-Enterprise(The Cage) had a computer system, that had a 60 core version of the CDC 6600.... TOS Enterprise had a 64 core version of the CDC 7600... But with little primary memory. Meaning that there was a very finite set of tasks it could do, at anyone time.

But for a couple of things. The first being this assumes no increase in computer clock speed, or that, an increase has little affect on computer programs. Then you have the "Independent Logic" elements - hard wired into the system. Once again showing something a bit off... But it also reveals, something else, through this chain of logic, no possibility of fabricators due to insufficient computer power... It shows just where their heads were at, at that time.


26 Mar 2013 09:46
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Given how many times you post things with subject lines--not to mention the posts themselves--that seem pulled out of thin air, all I can deduce is that you drink while surfing the net.


01 Apr 2013 22:54
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Nope. Don't drink, don't smoke, and I don't do drugs.

What I do, is to look for epiphanies, that is moments of insight.

And for this topic I realized a few things. Gene Roddenberry's generation had access to a certain type of technology, this colored their view. Or to less polite about, emplaced a certain bias upon them.

Factories of the 1960's were one of the most complex devices every conceived. But they were very limited in what they could do, due to their relay logic systems. A relay for those whom don't know, is an electromechanical device, of varying complexity - the complexity depends upon what the job is, that it is supposed to be doing. This is one of the reasons why factories had to have so many employees, just to get the jobs done. It wasn't until the invention of the Programmable Logic Controller, that real flexibility could be designed into a factory, thus reducing the retooling costs.

And before relay logic, production lines were even more labor intensive.

What I am trying to do, is to show, that it was once different once upon a time, for real.

The other thing, I am trying to show, is where the writer's imagination failed. To put it another way, the crew during TOS, was far too engaged in simple activities, just to control the ship. Though there is something to be said for a hands on approach.

Oh, and as to medical problems, I was diagnosed last Tuesday with with a really bad cataract in my left eye, and a bad one in my right. To the best of my knowledge, they weren't there six months ago.


02 Apr 2013 06:42
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John, Hope your vision issues can be corrected. Will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.

Mark

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02 Apr 2013 08:20
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Thank you.


02 Apr 2013 11:23
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Ahkyahnan wrote:
John, Hope your vision issues can be corrected. Will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.

Mark


My wishes for a speedy recovery as well, John.

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02 Apr 2013 19:06
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Quote:
My wishes for a speedy recovery as well, John.


agreed... : )

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All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force...
We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind.
This Mind is the matrix of all matter.
Max Planck


02 Apr 2013 19:45
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