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Fleet Evolution Timeline 
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16 Mar 2013 21:55
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Very interesting stuff, that.

I might be mis-understanding your use of terms, but wouldn't there be a link between the guardian and aggressor types and the patrol combatants? It just seems to me that there would be some overlap there.

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17 Mar 2013 11:20
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No, the aggressors represent Todd's Pompey and the way he rethought FJ's destroyer. The guardians reflect my thinking about his aggressors. I think I explained the distinction in the "Fleet Requirements and Starship Design" sticky thread- in fleet actions one would go out looking for trouble while the other would lay back waiting for it. Similar in appearance but totally different SSW+s breakdown.

But you are right about patrol combatants. Technically "patrol combatant" would include cutters, sloops, clippers, corvettes, corsairs, interceptors, escorts and PAs. Since this chart is more about the evolution of types than designs or roles I am using it to pretty much solely refer to PAs.

One thing I did forget to add were the heavy destroyers in the early 23rd century, which in my conception are related to both the aggressor and destroyer. They precede the aggressor and technically do evolve from destroyers. I guess if I were to name these ships just as I imagine they relate, I'd have typed Pompey a "light heavy destroyer". :P

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17 Mar 2013 12:13
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If you clear your image cache you will see that I have replaced the original chart with one that is revised to show the heavy destroyers as well as scouts.

Scouts had me a bit puzzled. FJ said they evolved from destroyers, and ST III showed a ship that seemed to be an evolution of a cruiser type. I always envisioned them as an evolution from clippers, but I realize Komarov -- a retelling of the Grissom design -- doesn't fit that idea. Going by the "Fleet Requirements" sticky, Komarov is really a scout cruiser that by the 2260s gets lumped in with scouts, just as I imagine FJ's Hermes-class scout is built as a "scout destroyer" and likewise gets lumped in with "as built" types. In the end you have a type that is a patchwork of some that were designed to fill the role and some that were adapted to fill the role.

That picture actually fits nicely with the Starship Recognition Chart's depiction of Nordenskjold and Horizon and Pytheas all as cruisers when they were built as respectively, a carrier, a cruiser and an aggressor.

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17 Mar 2013 14:15
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My take on Scouts, is that they are a cheap alternative version to the Heavy Cruiser. That is that FJ designed them to fill in the gaps, left by having too few Heavy Cruisers.
Consider, that a sensor platform doesn't need much...
That a Scout merely needs to show up, and its readings while maybe not as good as a Heavy Cruisers, are far better than nothing. Then remember something else We are talking a class I here. Such that, any little differences will be quite small.

As for the Grissom, she is a Science/Survey ship, who is out there running down the details, and maybe even the prolonged details, of things already encountered by a class I. She therefore can be even smaller than a class I. Why? Look at the word 'survey'. This implies directly, precise measurement of something in terms of location. What this means is that what ever they are looking at will be precisely determined, as to where it is, and its volume.
Why? Because in the case of a planet for example, it has already been mapped out, so what is going on, is something far more complete in nature. As a prelude to colonization perhaps???


Last edited by John N. Ritter on 17 Mar 2013 15:43, edited 1 time in total.



17 Mar 2013 15:31
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Oops. Got the arrow going the wrong way between heavy destroyers and aggressors. :x

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17 Mar 2013 15:33
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I have come to think as FJ's system as unnecessarily restrictive in some ways. Why should everything have the same big saucer? It is like saying you need to use an 18 wheeler even if you are going to the store for a carton of milk. That's the idea behind breaking the saucer down further. Take Jefferies modular idea as applied by FJ and add in his "hull pressure compartment" diagram. Thanks to Shaw I realized that could be the key to keeping the system modular but scaling it vertically among sizes as well as horizontally among types.

If you assume such a system, then a paucity of heavy cruisers doesn't lead you to build yet another ship with a big saucer. It leads you to build a light cruiser. It can even be like the kind of think we see with Grissom if we want to emphasize impulse and warp propulsion over other attributes on the SSW+s scale.

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17 Mar 2013 15:42
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hmm... would the modular hull concept allow building the various class/types using early Moscow class saucers... ; )

and are there smaller modular versions of the Excelsior type saucers... : )

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17 Mar 2013 17:09
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John N. Ritter wrote:
My take on Scouts, is that they are a cheap alternative version to the Heavy Cruiser. That is that FJ designed them to fill in the gaps, left by having too few Heavy Cruisers.
Consider, that a sensor platform doesn't need much...
That a Scout merely needs to show up, and its readings while maybe not as good as a Heavy Cruisers, are far better than nothing. Then remember something else We are talking a class I here. Such that, any little differences will be quite small.

As for the Grissom, she is a Science/Survey ship, who is out there running down the details, and maybe even the prolonged details, of things already encountered by a class I. She therefore can be even smaller than a class I. Why? Look at the word 'survey'. This implies directly, precise measurement of something in terms of location. What this means is that what ever they are looking at will be precisely determined, as to where it is, and its volume.
Why? Because in the case of a planet for example, it has already been mapped out, so what is going on, is something far more complete in nature. As a prelude to colonization perhaps???


A quick thought on the classification of Scout vessels. It would seem that there are two main branches the Tactical Scouts (ST) and the Survey Scout (SS) (or perhaps Science Scout, if you prefer)*. One can be used to perform the mission of the other in a pinch, but for the most part they would be outfitted for different specializations/missions. The ST vessels would in a way be sort of like the AWACS planes you see today. These would be out in front of the fleet locating threats and guiding the combatant vessels in the proper directions. The SS exactly as you describe above. Very specialized/outfitted depending on mission. After one of the big Class I heavies finds something and has moved on to the next mission, an SS gets sent out to do the follow-up survey/investigation. therefore it can be smaller and more lightly armed than the heavies are.


(* - never really glommed onto the "super scout" designation. Sorry.)

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17 Mar 2013 17:53
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Remember the Grissom was designated "FSV" - Federation Survey Vessel. She was designed to be small, then they didn't get into how fast she was... We know that she had around 80 crew, keeping in mind that crew spaces don't have to be as roomy as on a Class I ship... Which is why I disagree with fan/artists, that depict a large ship size. Unneeded to put it another way.

But there is a third possibility, that Grissom and her sisters were the Transwarp prototype ships which is why the Excelsior was built, because they knew Transwarp worked. In this third possibility, we would have what amounts to a small version of the Excelsior running around, being used to work out the bugs of the new technology. So I would favor a larger size that makes sense for the port holes we see. See those blue prints on that blue print site, the draftsman also did the construction profiles for the Enterprise...


18 Mar 2013 11:08
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