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I have been thinking again.
What I have been thinking about is a report I heard a couple of years ago, that they had finally achieved an A. I. copy of a person's personality, that is, it responded like that person, but it was found to be not very competent, in most maters - like that of a one year old version of that person. It may have had knoweledge, but no way to go too far with it. That is, it has limited ability to react as an adult would, in any given situation.

What happens in ST, if this same pattern was found? Answer: One would of course restict one's use of that to background, non harmful uses, as much as possible. Onboard a ship, this would seem to be rather limited, but maybe not. That is, it may be used to simplify ship operations, such that the result would be a very good ship, very easy to operate, for a crew.

Now flash forward to Dr Daystrom, and his Comptronic/Duotronic systems. People have gotten use to he rather limited "help" they receive from computers. Daystrom shows that a new " personality add on, would do just the trick, and it wouldn't take too much CPU time to do it. What this add on does, is to "force" pain(emotional/intellectual)(why do you think that you became mature - pain taught you, that you had handle reality, in a certain way)(this is known as 'wisdom') into the A. I. It forces that A. I. to become far more mature, in nature, so that after centuries of being at a vitural standstill, Daystrom achieves a whole new level of A. I. This new level of A. I. is vastly more effective, than what was there before. This meant that starships et el, could now be trusted to handle far more than the simple routine operations that they were entrusted with. Which meant that fewer crew were needed than before to do the same things, that were done with the earlier systems. Still there was some level beyond which Daystrom felt that Duotronics couldn't go. Hence his Multitronics.
This explains a great many things. Things like why a computer expert had to be on the ship, and why it would flall flat on its face from time to time.

Just to be clear here, about 'wisdom' First one must ask what it is, people have been trying to define it for a long time, but in this entry, I am saying that 'wisdom' comes from pain, the pain of error on at least two levels, emotional, and the intellectual levels. What happens is that one is forced to look into, the 'whys' of why something happened, usally by one's own error. At some level this is the only way to learn. Anything, of any importance.


01 Dec 2012 09:13
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The technical/engineering issues of an AI are a bit out of my area. I will not even attempt to speculate there.

But, what about the soiological/cultural implications of having truly self-aware articifical beings in existence (i.e. AI computers and/or andorids/robots)?

What rights would these beings have or be entitled to? Would these beings fit into the definition of a sentient person the humans (or in Trek's universe, the various alien races) do? Who would decide this?

If you have an AI-equipped starship (see the TV series Andromeda), how much autonomy or self-determination would this being be entitled to? Would a sentient starship in starfleet service technically be a slave or indentured servant? What would happen to this being when the ship reached the end of it's service life and was decommissioned? would the AI be moved to a new vessel, or would it "die" when the ship was dismantled? Would this be up to the Fleet, or would the AI have a say in it's own fate?

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01 Dec 2012 12:09
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Well that goes into something that I wanted to get into.

If A. I.s reach a plattue, that is, a flat, or nearly flat developmental curve, and it stays frozen for quite some time, due to a lack of understanding as to why they can't get further, and numerous attempts to exceed these limitations will be attempted. It is a given that the person whom does the breakthrough, will get a great deal of aclaim.

So lets go into this further, I have postiled that the A.I. reach some point, and don't go further. If the level they reach is at some point rather less than that of an adult human, then it follows that the 'rights' issue can't enter the picture. Why? My answer; do one years olds have the vote? Do you trust them to run a chemical factory? What about flying an aircraft? Steering a ship? The resounding answer is "no".

But what about an A. I. on a Durance Class Cargo Tug? An expert system, or a production system, as they are now called, has about 800 rules to drive it. But out side of these rules, it breaks down fast. The answers you get won't make sense. For an example: An A.I. that is designed to run a production facility, will only have those answers, that it needs to do the job. So why not use it to drive your car down the road? Because driving a car successfully, and running a productional facility that make twinkies, are totally different from each other So what about an A. I. that runs a that cargo tug? It is going to be much more robust in nature, but for general problem solving on a carge tug, it doesn't work to well, because there is too much ground to cover for it, no matter how well desinged it is. Given a production system to aid it, most likely multiple ones, it might just work out until something not thought of by the designers, occurrs, then it is up the creek. Even using 'look ahead' techniques, it will soon run out of options. That is, implaments as the M-5 was.
But what about another way of using it? The space shuttle was complex - too complex, for what could be done at the time it was built. So if you instead installed something that could run the shuttle, under human direction, the controls would have been much simpler. So what I am getting at, is the idea of keeping things simpl as possible. What this would mean in terms of the cargo tug bridge versus the Enterprise's bridge, is that the cargo tugs bridge would need far more controls visable to the human eye, than the Enterpise's bridge does have. So what would happen is that humanswould come to have contemp for the computer A. I. In oterh words: Rights? What rights? Because what you will be looking at, is the failures tht have occurred. Nobody gives rights to a small child for exactly the same reason. Small children have right, yes. but they aren't the same as for adults. mainly the right to have their needs filled, correctly.


01 Dec 2012 13:17
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I wasn't satisfied with my above answer, too long and too simple. From a human perspective, an idiot servant, has little use to anyone. An A. I. that is one, is another matter. In their specialized areas, they would be quite useful. Now to show where I am coming from.

Take a look at TOS Enterprise's bridge. What does it tell us, about the computer's capabilities - for this is an answer. The fact that the bridge exists at all, tells us that their A. I. has some problems. Why? the quick answer is that, the crew desires to keep abreast of what is going on, on a moment by moment basis. Again why? Historically, one must conclude that simpler bridges have not been flexible enough in operation to handle the needs of the moment, in a good way - that is, bridge design was one of the reasons for failure, that is, the loss of the ship, or near loss. Yes, that is the correct order. If trouble occurs, it will be fast and hard first and foremost. So the worst can be expected to happen, always.
The bridge shows us, the true state of A. I. in the Federation. That is, keep one eye open at al times.
But what about what we saw? That is, not all stations were manned at all times this too is a clue. It is also a statement upon the performance of Duotronics, that a full bridge crew wasn't always needed per se. A pre Duotronic system would have required more persons on the bridge, just to make sure everything was going alright. Instead of six, maybe a full bridge crew at all times. This argues for an A. I. that may be doing its job, well, but not well enough. The existence of Duotronics argues that it had been quite some time since any computer breakthroughs had be done in this area.

Now we get into the civilian area. One must assume that intergrated circuts never went beyond a certain point. What this means is that there had to be some issue with having a high number of transistors per chip, which would limit what could be done. Which means, no or few 'smart' appliances - no smart refrigerators, no smart microwaves, no smart clotheswashers, and so on. This doesn't mean that they didn't happen, just much later than expected Itmeans that Nomad while not one of a kind, was rare, in nature. Why do I say this?? Because A. I. is already out there, we have it already, and it does considerable amounts of work.
So when looking at FRS, for example, one must take this into account. The Lief Erricson, is more likely to be correct about things then we are. Why? We know too much of how things have been, instead of where it was thought to be going.


02 Dec 2012 08:27
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Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:44
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Here are some recent advances that might answer some questions.

AI might benefit from analog chips for fuzzy thinking
Analog microchips
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/NASA_ ... y_999.html

Spooky matter and DNA legos
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Exper ... r_999.html
http://bigthink.com/ideafeed/has-the-lh ... -of-matter
http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread. ... ing-matter
http://www.space.com/18693-dna-legos-build-shuttle.html

The power of evolution
http://www.diplomacy.edu/blog/171-%E2%8 ... -evolution


Meta-focus of radio waves
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/11/metama ... waves.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/11/light- ... could.html

Hackbox
http://gizmodo.com/5928189/this-innocen ... ag=hacking
Oldbox http://blog.longnow.org/02012/07/11/min ... -for-good/
http://blog.longnow.org/02012/06/14/the ... computers/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fi ... _computers
http://longstreet.typepad.com/thescienc ... short.html

Circuits
http://nextbigfuture.com/2006/06/diamon ... uctor.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/11/new-pa ... antum.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/11/thermo ... cheap.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/11/nanopa ... trate.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/11/new-ca ... or-3d.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/11/memris ... y-and.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/11/quantu ... emote.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/11/high-p ... es-it.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/11/the-fu ... -high.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/11/ultrat ... ingle.html
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=192745
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/11/artifi ... -made.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/11/comput ... could.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/11/resear ... -wifi.html

nanotubes http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/11/carbon ... -with.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/11/nanotu ... their.html


Laser cannons
http://gizmodo.com/5949983/the-army-fin ... r-machines
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/11/lockhe ... es-10.html

diamond tips
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/11/nanome ... prove.html
Tricorder
http://bigthink.com/ideafeed/from-star- ... -tricorder
Self-replicating machines (SRM)
http://www.molecularassembler.com/KSRM.htm

User interface--floating ball http://www.universetoday.com/95218/an-a ... interface/
http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php ... instrument
http://arxiv.org/abs/1205.4502

contour crafting http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/11/contou ... -talk.html

Quantum computing
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=187936
Cat-like maths--terrorist repeats and more:
http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread. ... ost2060364

Super detector
http://www.space.com/16675-nasa-signal- ... verse.html
http://www.universetoday.com/96379/a-sp ... -universe/
http://www.space.com/16656-space-manufa ... nting.html
Hypospray-thruster http://arxiv.org/abs/1207.1844


Stargate switch
http://arxiv.org/abs/1209.4991
Communications Book
http://www.universetoday.com/98044/book ... echnology/

Humans better than robots
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index. ... ic=28472.0
http://www.space.com/18322-mars-sample- ... obots.html

Clarke's life www.thespacereview.com/article/2169/1
Bandwidth boost
www.technologyreview.com/news/429722/a- ... akthrough/
http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=17196 Quantum Soul
Ditto scope http://www.space.com/18305-an-old-idea- ... twist.html
Dish antenna http://arxiv.org/abs/1211.0748
CHopper hopper http://www.americaspace.org/?p=27086
http://io9.com/5937178/how-blue-lantern ... ife-babies
http://nextbigfuture.com/2012/11/dittos ... copes.html


Nuclear power for space travel--heat pipes DUFF
http://www.space-travel.com/reports/Res ... l_999.html
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index. ... ic=30470.0


03 Dec 2012 18:10
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Been thinking about that first article. Its language, is almost a throwback to what was used in the episode The Ultimate Computer.... The other thing about that first article that intrigs me is that a computer built that way would be 500 times more effective, in the use of transistors...

I wonder about the following things - voice recognition, pattern recognition, Transporters(both real world, and TOS)
Which feeds into my understanding of the word "Duotronics" which at its simplest , means two of something - which means that duocores may be Duotronic... It may also be understood as Daystrom's second computer desing approach, and so on.

The thing about transpoters, is that they must be highly parallel in order to work at all, which implies that either a transporter's CPU is a very long word machine or analog. Or both.


07 Dec 2012 11:06
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Been thinking about this concept of what we call A. I.

First, a thought crossed my mind today, about Multitronics - again, I come back to the idea that Multitronics is what Daystrom came up with, not comptronics, nor Duotronics. This is based upon the idea that a Multitronic computer system needs at least 10^14 switches in some form to be useable. That is, for a human brain to be impressed upon the circutry of the computer - assuming that it goes into the computer entirely, one for one. Anything else, would require computer memory, to hold the rest of it, with would require a 47 to 48 bit word length to be sucessful at all...
Another way of saying this, is that it requires 10^14 power transistors, to work at all. Anything else would be too slow.
The next thing to remember, is that it is not a human brain, per se. Why? Because the Multitronic M-5 was time sharing the total power of itself, accross mulitple jobs, which means some sort of advance time sharing operating system. To switch between being the helmsman to the chief engineer, to the captain, and so on. In other words, it wears many hats - seemingly at once. But time sharing is absolutely required.

So what does this say about Duotronics? It say that its A. I. also needs to time share, as well...


10 Jan 2013 12:26
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Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:44
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Here are some other breakthroughs
Data Storage crystal and displays http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=18095
http://bigthink.com/ideafeed/papertab-c ... ech-worlds
Rad hardened chips
www.spacedaily.com/reports/LEON_the_spa ... t_999.html

New advances in metals
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index. ... ic=30804.0


Starship book
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/review ... aking.html
http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread. ... -Pessimism
E-Sail advance and superfibers
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/a-one- ... -sail.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/new-na ... tched.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/southa ... ilica.html

50 KW laser weapon
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/german ... -high.html
Holographic TVs from Phased array optics
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/record ... rrays.html

Misc:
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/breakt ... ctors.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/standa ... could.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/analog ... e-for.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/atomic ... vices.html
http://bigthink.com/ideafeed/how-creati ... te-in-life
http://bigthink.com/ideafeed/worried-ab ... his-hoodie
http://bigthink.com/think-tank/what-the ... s-amateurs
www.space.com/19209-venus-atmosphere-ma ... ropes.html
http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2 ... -you-need/
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/proof- ... -that.html


12 Jan 2013 17:27
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Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:44
Posts: 807
Here is some more tech news
Cool Manned flyby craft EMPIRE
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2013/ ... pire-1962/
Nuke drive and O'neil
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/nasa-r ... anced.html
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index. ... ic=18063.0
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index. ... ic=30951.0

N-1 engine tested http://www.americaspace.com/?p=30565
F-1 components tested http://www.space.com/19379-saturn-5-f1- ... iring.html

LIDAR/LADAR
http://forum.nasaspaceflight.com/index. ... ic=30897.0
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/World ... d_999.html


Misc

http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Resea ... d_999.html
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Resea ... s_999.html
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/New_2 ... s_999.html
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/DARPA ... s_999.html
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Compu ... k_999.html
http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=18426


D-wave quantum computing
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/dwave- ... could.html

Metamaterials produce Ghost image
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/creati ... using.html

Sub-neutron stars http://arxiv.org/abs/1301.2675

Hybrid air drive
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/hybrid ... sions.html

Hydrogel
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/antimi ... fight.html
Brain and Graphene tech
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/brain- ... jects.html

Transporter
www.universetoday.com/99604/dont-tell-b ... eaming-up/

Table top quantum foam
http://arxiv.org/abs/1301.4322

Wormhole science
http://www.spacetimetravel.org/wurmloch ... hflug.html
http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread. ... ost2102197

Laser cannon for airplanes http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/150-ki ... alled.html

Floating domed buildings
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/hollan ... ating.html

Static cloak
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/thin-m ... tatic.html
Metamaterial scanners and other tech
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/simple ... th-no.html http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/a-scal ... amond.html http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/ultraf ... ad-to.html http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/optica ... r-and.html

New superconductors
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/50-tes ... cting.html http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/magnet ... la-in.html

Gravity lensing
http://cosmoquest.org/forum/showthread. ... y-research
Anti-scanner chain mail
http://up-ship.com/blog/?p=18388


27 Jan 2013 16:27
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Some more info
Tsar Bomb http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/friedl ... nd-on.html

Computer tech that flashes away http://bigthink.com/ideafeed/wanted-literal-vaporware

http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/02/improv ... ve-30.html
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/optima ... uting.html

Jetsim http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/02/stanfo ... cores.html

Nanomotor http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/02/enzyme ... otors.html

Photonic device printing--and graphene
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/02/printa ... ub-10.html http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/02/toward ... large.html http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/trappi ... s-for.html

More on airships
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/130-mp ... thout.html

Moller, funded
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/you-as ... -cars.html

Tabletop accelerator
http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/table- ... ators.html

Asteroid mining pay-off http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/the-bi ... -ever.html

Multiverse material http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/01/multim ... ation.html

Liquid repellant tech
http://www.wired.com/design/2013/02/sup ... alidocious

Table top quantum foam
http://arxiv.org/abs/1301.4322

Solar sail http://www.space.com/19565-worlds-large ... ammer.html
Computer
http://www.space.com/19595-cool-compute ... video.html
http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Satel ... s_999.html


02 Feb 2013 15:47
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